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Rob
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:31 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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nwr wrote: Main ideas (you can think of these as predictions): [list][*]Part of the variation within a population is within the junk DNA of organisms that are part of the population. Since the junk DNA is non-coding, this largely protects the variations from the effects of natural selection which might otherwise cause that DNA to be lost to the population.
ID predicts that there is very little if any 'junk DNA'. When you say that these segments of DNA do not code for anything, do you mean 'proteins'?
This quaternary digital code is alien in complexity. Why can't much of the non-coding (for protein) DNA be a more complex and as yet not understood code for gene expression timing or code for regulating cell division and the like?
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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jar
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:43 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:15 am Posts: 2408 Location: Deep South Texas
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Rob wrote: nwr wrote: Main ideas (you can think of these as predictions): [list][*]Part of the variation within a population is within the junk DNA of organisms that are part of the population. Since the junk DNA is non-coding, this largely protects the variations from the effects of natural selection which might otherwise cause that DNA to be lost to the population. ID predicts that there is very little if any 'junk DNA'. When you say that these segments of DNA do not code for anything, do you mean 'proteins'? This quaternary digital code is alien in complexity. Why can't much of the non-coding (for protein) DNA be a more complex and as yet not understood code for gene expression timing or code for regulating cell division and the like?
Saying "ID predicts is like saying "The unknown fairy said...", it is a comment that has no meaning or content whatsoever.
a rigorous definition of ID including bring in the designer and placing it on exhibit for examination, ID is not something worth wasting space on. at best, and most likely just another example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance's campaign to move their little picayune god into the classroom.
Until someone presents
The "quaternary digital code" is NOT alien in complexity even if "alien complexity" had any real meaning.
Let's try to deal with Biology here and not fantasies and fairytales.
_________________ How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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Rob
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:49 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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A link for you to read: http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Junk_DNA
Quote: T. Ryan Gregory summarizes:[44]
In fact, quite a lengthy list of proposed functions for non-coding DNA could be compiled (for an early version, see Bostock 1971[45]). Examples include buffering against mutations (e.g., Comings 1972[46]; Patrushev and Minkevich 2006[47]) or retroviruses (e.g., Bremmerman 1987[48]) or fluctuations in intracellular solute concentrations (Vinogradov 1998[49]), serving as binding sites for regulatory molecules (Zuckerkandl 1981[50]), facilitating recombination (e.g., Comings 1972[51]; Gall 1981[52]; Comeron 2001[53]), inhibiting recombination (Zuckerkandl and Hennig 1995[54]), influencing gene expression (Britten and Davidson 1969; Georgiev 1969; Nowak 1994; Zuckerkandl and Hennig 1995; Zuckerkandl 1997), increasing evolutionary flexibility (e.g., Britten and Davidson 1969[55], 1971[56]; Jain 1980[57]; reviewed critically in Doolittle 1982), maintaining chromosome structure and behaviour (e.g., Walker et al. 1969[58]; Yunis and Yasmineh 1971[59]; Bennett 1982[60]; Zuckerkandl and Hennig 1995[61]), coordinating genome function (Shapiro and von Sternberg 2005[62]), and providing multiple copies of genes to be recruited when needed (Roels 1966[63]).
Junk DNA huh?
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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Rob
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:56 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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jar wrote: Saying "ID predicts is like saying "The unknown fairy said...", it is a comment that has no meaning or content whatsoever. a rigorous definition of ID including bring in the designer and placing it on exhibit for examination
We don't require placing the author of an ancient text on exhibit. And we have many texts in which we do not have empirical evidence of the author (or even know who the author is). Your argument just doesn't hold up unless it can be shown that there is a natural explanation for DNA.
Richard Dawkins confesses in the movie 'Expelled' that there is not. Though he does invoke intelligence as an explanation for it's existence. The only difference is that He invokes a material designer. But so do I.
I invoke a material designer as well. One that is historically known to have lived. Of course we must remember that matter is relative, and so is time. The difference between the material and the non-material loses location at the quantum dimension.
enjoy...
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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jar
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:03 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:15 am Posts: 2408 Location: Deep South Texas
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Rob wrote: jar wrote: Saying "ID predicts is like saying "The unknown fairy said...", it is a comment that has no meaning or content whatsoever. a rigorous definition of ID including bring in the designer and placing it on exhibit for examination We don't require placing the author of an ancient text on exhibit. And we have many texts in which we do not have empirical evidence of the author (or even know who the author is). Your argument just doesn't hold up unless it can be shown that there is a natural explanation for DNA.
Not at all. We know that there were humans that were capable of producing text.
_________________ How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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nwr
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:07 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:44 am Posts: 929 Location: Geneva, Illinois
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Rob wrote: ID predicts that there is very little if any 'junk DNA'. ID doesn't predict anything. Perhaps some ID proponents predict something about junk DNA, but they have no mechanism on which to base that prediction.
If you predict that there is very little junk DNA, then you are clearly wrong. There is plenty of junk DNA. You need to understand that "junk DNA" is a technical term, not a description of the importance of parts of DNA.
_________________ My blog: http://nwrickert.wordpress.com/
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Rob
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:49 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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For the record, this thread was created by jar. I was answering your OP in another thread. There is no mythos leading to the idea of intelligent design other than pure observation of known data.
It is not mythos to find a book (of which there are many) or manuscript when there is no direct evidence of a designer. The book (information) is the evidence that the author existed.
It's no more complicated than that.
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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jar
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:01 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:15 am Posts: 2408 Location: Deep South Texas
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Rob wrote: For the record, this thread was created by jar. I was answering your OP in another thread. There is no mythos leading to the idea of intelligent design other than pure observation of known data.
It is not mythos to find a book (of which there are many) or manuscript when there is no direct evidence of a designer. The book (information) is the evidence that the author existed.
It's no more complicated than that.
But finding a book is not unexpected. We know that humans are a record keeping critter, and so there is ample reason that when we find a book we can assume with a high degree of confidence that a human created it.
The question is "What is it that drives some humans to then take the known instance of a human trait and try to apply it to other areas where there is no evidence either of design or designer?"
How is ID different than a belief that lightning is caused by the Gods throwing temper tantrums or that earthquakes are the result of the tortoise moving?
_________________ How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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Rob
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:04 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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nwr wrote: You need to understand that "junk DNA" is a technical term, not a description of the importance of parts of DNA. I don't agree that it is a technical term. Quote: The earliest use of the term "Junk DNA" in the biological literature appears to be by Dr. Susumu Ohno in his 1972 paper titled, "So much "junk" DNA in our genome."[1] Ohno focused "mainly on the fossilized genes, called pseudo genes, that are strewn like tombstones throughout our DNA." Ohno laments that it was difficult to perceive the role repetitive DNA played, and expected much of DNA to be non-functional, due to his evolutionary presuppositions.
Francis Crick[2] and Sydney Brenner[3] have also been proposed as the originators of the phrase. (However, explicit citations are not given when either of these are claimed as originators.) When challenged by someone with the argument that God would not have created us with 97 per cent of redundant or useless DNA, Brenner is said to have retorted, "I said it was 'junk' DNA, not 'trash'. Everyone knows that you throw away trash. But junk we keep in the attic until there may be some need for it."
[Added: Who is the you Brenner eludes to??? which in itself shows thoughtful and designed purpose]
In addition to Ohno’s paper, another interesting paper in the same 1972 Brookhaven proceedings collection is by R.J. Britten, which offers an overview of early 70's perspectives on the origin/purpose of the repetitive DNA.[4] Britten reveals that, "Whether the repeated DNA in its now widely interspersed state is simply spacer between genes or carries out an active role is the subject of intensive current investigation."
So... it is an ambiguous term... nothing technical about it, except that it was... and is still... used to promote the idea that it is leftover information from an evolutionary process.
If that's not what it means, then as Brenner accidentally showed, it reveals intent, purpose, i.e. design.
In the opinion of myself and many others that is...
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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Rob
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:08 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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jar wrote: But finding a book is not unexpected. We know that humans are a record keeping critter, and so there is ample reason that when we find a book we can assume with a high degree of confidence that a human created it.
The question is "What is it that drives some humans to then take the known instance of a human trait and try to apply it to other areas where there is no evidence either of design or designer?"
Because humans are natural (as you like to say) or at least partly natural... and nature tends to follow repetative patterns.
That is unless you want to believe in some totally unknown process as yet undiscovered or having simmilarity in any known nature.
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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jar
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:11 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:15 am Posts: 2408 Location: Deep South Texas
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Rob wrote: jar wrote: But finding a book is not unexpected. We know that humans are a record keeping critter, and so there is ample reason that when we find a book we can assume with a high degree of confidence that a human created it.
The question is "What is it that drives some humans to then take the known instance of a human trait and try to apply it to other areas where there is no evidence either of design or designer?" Because humans are natural (as you like to say) or at least partly natural... and nature tends to follow repetative patterns. That is unless you want to believe in some totally unknown process as yet undiscovered or having simmilarity in any known nature.
Huh?
_________________ How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
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nwr
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:12 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:44 am Posts: 929 Location: Geneva, Illinois
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Rob wrote: For the record, this thread was created by jar. Yes, I knew that, though "created" is the wrong word here. Rather, jar split another thread to move part of it here. I did originally see you post before the split. It was actually way off topic. That thread was meant to be a rather technical discussion related to biology, and should not be dragged into an ID discussion. Rob wrote: It is not mythos to find a book (of which there are many) or manuscript when there is no direct evidence of a designer. If it is the "Book of Mormon", then it surely is mythos. Or perhaps you meant to say "author" instead of "designer."
_________________ My blog: http://nwrickert.wordpress.com/
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nwr
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:20 am |
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:44 am Posts: 929 Location: Geneva, Illinois
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Rob wrote: nwr wrote: You need to understand that "junk DNA" is a technical term, not a description of the importance of parts of DNA. I don't agree that it is a technical term. You only show that you should not have been posting in that thread. Rob wrote: Quote: The earliest use of the term "Junk DNA" in the biological literature appears to be by Dr. Susumu Ohno in his 1972 paper ... The history isn't all that relevant. Sure, originally "junk" was used descriptively, But by now usage has changed in that it is still called "junk DNA" while at the same time there is widespread recognition that it is not actually junk. That makes it a technical term.
_________________ My blog: http://nwrickert.wordpress.com/
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Rob
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:42 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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Quote: If it is the "Book of Mormon", then it surely is mythos. Or perhaps you meant to say "author" instead of "designer."
I think they are interchangeable. The book of Mormon was designed by an author. Unfortunately, there is no archaeological, horticultural, DNA, or other evidence to support it's cliams. It is therefore very poorly designed and exceptionally unscientific. In other words, it does not match the patterns we see in the natural course of things.
And that is curious... since philosophically, all things are natural (to you and yours), how could things unnatural or unreal be caused by that which is?
Nature begets nature; cause and effect.
That would make an interesting thread on it's own.
The important thing is... the same cannot be said for the Bible. If it is a deception, it appears to be a very evil and exceptionally disingenuous, clever, and well designed imposter of reality.
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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Rob
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Post subject: Re: The invasive theory Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:47 am |
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:38 am Posts: 742 Location: Califonia
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nwr wrote: by now usage has changed in that it is still called "junk DNA" while at the same time there is widespread recognition that it is not actually junk. That makes it a technical term. I showed that too. Did you not read the reply? Let me recap for you: Quote: When challenged by someone with the argument that God would not have created us with 97 per cent of redundant or useless DNA, Brenner is said to have retorted, "I said it was 'junk' DNA, not 'trash'. Everyone knows that you throw away trash. But junk we keep in the attic until there may be some need for it." ( http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Junk_DNA )
Who is the you and we Brenner eludes to?
He accidentally infers design...
Technical terms don't change nwr... ambiguous terms change.
_________________ Bambi grew up to have horns
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