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 Post subject: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:13 am 
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The New York Times Magazine, on 1/13/08, featured an article by Steven Pinker, "What Makes Us Want to Be Good?" in which he discusses some recent concepts and researches in the field of evolutionary psychology as they relate to morality. (You may need a log-in to view this article in its entirety.) There is a great deal that is intriguing in the piece, but I want to discuss the "thought experiment" on which much of it is based. Here are Pinker's descriptions of the thought experiments I want to consider:

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The gap between people’s convictions and their justifications is also on display in the favorite new sandbox for moral psychologists, a thought experiment devised by the philosophers Philippa Foot and Judith Jarvis Thomson called the Trolley Problem. On your morning walk, you see a trolley car hurtling down the track, the conductor slumped over the controls. In the path of the trolley are five men working on the track, oblivious to the danger. You are standing at a fork in the track and can pull a lever that will divert the trolley onto a spur, saving the five men. Unfortunately, the trolley would then run over a single worker who is laboring on the spur. Is it permissible to throw the switch, killing one man to save five? Almost everyone says “yes.”

Consider now a different scene. You are on a bridge overlooking the tracks and have spotted the runaway trolley bearing down on the five workers. Now the only way to stop the trolley is to throw a heavy object in its path. And the only heavy object within reach is a fat man standing next to you. Should you throw the man off the bridge? Both dilemmas present you with the option of sacrificing one life to save five, and so, by the utilitarian standard of what would result in the greatest good for the greatest number, the two dilemmas are morally equivalent. But most people don’t see it that way: though they would pull the switch in the first dilemma, they would not heave the fat man in the second. When pressed for a reason, they can’t come up with anything coherent, though moral philosophers haven’t had an easy time coming up with a relevant difference, either.

When psychologists say “most people” they usually mean “most of the two dozen sophomores who filled out a questionnaire for beer money.” But in this case it means most of the 200,000 people from a hundred countries who shared their intuitions on a Web-based experiment conducted by the psychologists Fiery Cushman and Liane Young and the biologist Marc Hauser. A difference between the acceptability of switch-pulling and man-heaving, and an inability to justify the choice, was found in respondents from Europe, Asia and North and South America; among men and women, blacks and whites, teenagers and octogenarians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Jews and atheists; people with elementary-school educations and people with Ph.D.’s.


Pinker then goes on to relate fMRI studies performed on experimental subjects considering this dilemma, endorsing the conclusion that the "hands-off" scenario of trolley switching remained in the realm of rational analysis, while the "hands-on" scenario of tossing the fat man off the bridge triggered the "universal grammar" of emotional conflict/morality which makes us averse to man-handling other people. Note that he has emphasized the rigor of the data collection involved with this thought experiment.

While it is always risky to try to confound science with common sense, in this case I think it is warranted.

When I perform this thought experiment, I find myself challenging the credibility of the scenarios: I have time to switch the trolley to another track--but I don't have time to shout out a warning to the five men in danger's way? If there is time to switch the trolley, there must be some possibility that the five men will become aware of impending doom and jump aside. In other words, their deaths are not certain, and by switching the trolley to another track with only one potential victim, I am not playing god--I am merely managing risk.

In the fat-man-on-the-bridge scenario, there is no doubt about the fat man's fate if he is thrown from the bridge: he will die. Yet there is inescapably some doubt about the outcome for the five men: again, if there is time to hoist the fat man and toss him off the bridge, and time for him to fall and land in front of the train, then there is time to attempt a warning and a possibility that the five men may escape the trolley's path.

So it seems to me that the two scenarios vary in an important, realistic way: in the switch case, you have reduced the possible number of victions, but you have not with certainty doomed anyone.

In the fat man scenario, you have without a doubt condemned someone to die. I would expect a reasonable person to find the former scenario (reducing the number of possible victims, who in any case have some chance of escape) acceptable, and the latter (definitely consigning someone to an unjust death) unacceptable.

Frankly, I also doubt that one fat man could derail a trolley! And if he is big enough to stop a trolley, could I lift him? I don't think these are trifling quibbles. Thought experiments may be useful, but surely only if they are as rigorous as every other experiment.

Thought experiments seem only to work as intended when the thinker accepts the tenets uncritically, agreeing to entertain a certainty of outcome that does not exist in the real world.

I'd like to talk about my perspective on this, and, possibly, other "thought experiments." I don't want to go too far astray into evolutionary pscyhology per se, but rather focus on the issue of thought experiments used to generate results that are then treated as rigorous experimental data which can bear the weight of serious hypotheses.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:13 pm 
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Nice analysis, Omni.

I read the thought experiment, and thought about it, before reading your analysis. My first thought was that the fat man probably wouldn't stop the trolley. And it also occurred to me that the trolley might make enough noise, as it approached, to warn the possible victims.

I often find that proposed moral dilemmas are too simplistic to adequately deal with the question that they propose to examine.

I'll note that this thread is more moral philosophy than philosophy of science.


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:19 pm 
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nwr wrote:
I'll note that this thread is more moral philosophy than philosophy of science.


I agree--but Pinker presents the thought experiment study as rigorous science, so I thought it fair game for here.

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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:21 pm 
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Hi guys :) Good topic...

omni wrote:
In the fat-man-on-the-bridge scenario, there is no doubt about the fat man's fate if he is thrown from the bridge: he will die. Yet there is inescapably some doubt about the outcome for the five men: again, if there is time to hoist the fat man and toss him off the bridge, and time for him to fall and land in front of the train, then there is time to attempt a warning and a possibility that the five men may escape the trolley's path.


My first thought was that I simply wouldn't perceive the fat man as a tool to be used... thus immediately failing lateral thinking 101, but also creating a distinction between the two cases...


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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:41 pm 
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omni wrote:
In the fat man scenario, you have without a doubt condemned someone to die. I would expect a reasonable person to find the former scenario (reducing the number of possible victims, who in any case have some chance of escape) acceptable, and the latter (definitely consigning someone to an unjust death) unacceptable.
I agree and there's no guarantee that the fat man would land on the tracks or stay on the tracks, but as you said he will definitely die.

Pulling the switch scenario has more potential for no one expiring unlike the fat man scenario.

Unfortunately most of us would probably panic and not do anything at all. :(

I don't believe you guys couldn't get some purple smilies!

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:51 pm 
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...but Pinker presents the thought experiment study as rigorous science, ...

I'm not a member of the Pinker fan club.

Yes, psychologists do use these kinds of things in experimental research. They lead to conclusions such as suggested by the title of Sutherland's book "Irrationality: the enemy within". I'm a skeptic of that line of psychological research. To me, it seems to be based on making dubious assumptions about the intentions of the experimental subjects.


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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:51 am 
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Cavediver wrote:
My first thought was that I simply wouldn't perceive the fat man as a tool to be used...


i agree, Cavediver; nor would I.

I also think making the erstwhile potential trolley-blocker specifically a fat man may (forgive me) tip the scales somewhat, given contemporary intolerance of the differently massed :)

And if the man is massive enough to stop a trolley, what effect would that have on the passengers in the trolley? Wouldn't any obstacle big enough to stop a train also threaten to derail it? Also, what about the last minute switch in the first scenario: if the trolley is moving slowly enough to be safely switched, why is the threat so dire. It seems to me that no thought experiment can capture the complexities and nuances of our moral reasoning.

Once you start reflecting on the scenarios, thought experiments seem always to come unglued in a dozen places. It's one thing to use a thought experiment to help teach an already demonstrated phenomenon, but anything else seems dubious at best

These scenarios, to my mind, certainly don't demonstrate a "universal grammar" of morality akin to Noam Chomsky's notions about an evolved "deep grammar" for human language.

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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:55 am 
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I don't believe you guys couldn't get some purple smilies!

:oops:

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:27 am 
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Say what you will about the real-ness of this trolley dilemma - and I'll agree that they may be less than ideal. But I read a study in Science or maybe Nature within the last few months where the researchers tested folks off the street against people with specific sorts of brain damage with exactly this sort of story. They got very different test results from the two groups. Pinker mentions this on p. 3, but I thought he could have spent a bit longer on it.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Anyone strong enough to pick up and toss a man large enough to stop a trolley could jump down and stop it his very self.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the purpose of such studies is meant to be. There is not a consistent logic to morality or ethics. We might hope that was a fact but observation seems to tell us otherwise. In the original thought experiment there is also always the emphasis on the idea that after the fact, people cannot logically support their decisions.

Well, no shit.

The scenario is designed to be a lose-lose situation. There is no satisfactory solution. If it devolves to personal action that leads to someones death then yes, most folk would rather not be the arbiter or agent.

However, we can also look to history and see many examples of people actually choosing the "Fat man option", for example the company commander that assigns one or several men to hold a defensive position that can only result in their deaths to allow the larger body of troops to withdraw.

People do choose the "Fat man option" on occasion, and very likely question their decision for the rest of their lives.

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Last edited by jar on Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:10 am 
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I think the point of the thought experiment is to express the difference between an impersonal decision that has an extremely distasteful consequence and one wherein the exact same outcome {the death of a single person} which requires actually committing the physical act directly {pushing} as opposed to remotely committing.{ throwing a switch}.

Everybody can agree that the act is justifiable when the action they take is a step removed and thus somewhat impersonalized. Yet the exact same outcome being refused when the process requires a personal action directly leads to a questioning on just how committed to a moral act one really is.

We can claim to be morally certain of how we would act yet this thought experiment reveals that the moral "code" is flexible and thereby not a firm stand without concern for the context of the event.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:09 am 
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nwr wrote:
Nice analysis, Omni.

I read the thought experiment, and thought about it, before reading your analysis. My first thought was that the fat man probably wouldn't stop the trolley. And it also occurred to me that the trolley might make enough noise, as it approached, to warn the possible victims.

I often find that proposed moral dilemmas are too simplistic to adequately deal with the question that they propose to examine.

I'll note that this thread is more moral philosophy than philosophy of science.


I agree with NWR in each detail, including having read this dilemma before from the same source. Would just like to add that I believe in a general sense of utilitarianism, the greatest good for the greatest number, within the confines of the information one has at their disposal.

As to what happens when that train actually approaches, we may have to await a real, rather than a theoretical, response.

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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:37 am 
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sidelined:
Quote:
I think the point of the thought experiment is to express the difference between an impersonal decision that has an extremely distasteful consequence and one wherein the exact same outcome {the death of a single person} which requires actually committing the physical act directly {pushing} as opposed to remotely committing.{ throwing a switch}.


I think that sums up the intended point of the thought experiment admirably, and the fMRI studies of brain damaged individuals, who, according to the study authors, do not show this conflict, are fascinating. I do not mean to say that thought experiments cannot lead to insights or hypotheses.

However, it seems to me that the thought experiment does not rigorously control all other variables, especially the fact that the two scenarios differ not only by contrasting direct action with remote instrumentality but also in certainty of a deadly outcome.

The greater difference, in my opinion and for the reasons previously discussed, is that the trolley switch scenario cannot credibly claim that inaction (not throwing the switch) with lead to five deaths, and action (throwing the switch) to one death; throwing someone off the bridge, however, will undoubtedly cause another human being to die. The experiments were intended to contrast the influence of indirect and direct causation in our moral reasoning, but the contrast of uncertainty and certainty seems equally telling.

I am leery of the fMRI data being interpreted in light of thought experiments which do not yield data of the same quality as imaging studies of controlled populations. Perhaps the brain-damaged subjects more wholly accept the thought experiments' premises without the more complex moral calculus of normal subjects. So the study may tell us something about brain-damaged subjects but little about normal ones.[/quote]

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 Post subject: Is Situational Ethics Scientific?
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:06 am 
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Thought experiments seem only to work as intended when the thinker accepts the tenets uncritically, agreeing to entertain a certainty of outcome that does not exist in the real world.
I think these are Pipe Dreams
involving theoretical responses in a theoretical world. People don't usually consciously calculate responsiveness to correlate with the least lives lost.

Take a military decision in a small group of men. (Saving Private Ryan is a good example.) The decision was usually made to save Ryan even though it subjected the men "escorting/protecting" him to increased risks of death themselves.

In the fat man scenario, I highly doubt whether an involved onlooker would even think about using one fat man to stop a train. (Unless he was unusually annoying)

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 Post subject: Re: Thought Experiments: Pipedreams or Profound Insights?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:56 pm 
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omni wrote:
On your morning walk, you see a trolley car hurtling down the track, the conductor slumped over the controls. In the path of the trolley are five men working on the track, oblivious to the danger. You are standing at a fork in the track and can pull a lever that will divert the trolley onto a spur, saving the five men. Unfortunately, the trolley would then run over a single worker who is laboring on the spur. Is it permissible to throw the switch, killing one man to save five? Almost everyone says “yes.”


Analyzing the situation tells me that if you have enough time to throw the lever, you might also have enough time to tell out and warn the oblivious bystanders of their impending doom.

But I realize that the point of the inquiry is to uncover why you would choose the way you do. In this case, the lesser-of-evils seems to be the dominant situation.

Quote:
Consider now a different scene. You are on a bridge overlooking the tracks and have spotted the runaway trolley bearing down on the five workers. Now the only way to stop the trolley is to throw a heavy object in its path. And the only heavy object within reach is a fat man standing next to you. Should you throw the man off the bridge? Both dilemmas present you with the option of sacrificing one life to save five, and so, by the utilitarian standard of what would result in the greatest good for the greatest number, the two dilemmas are morally equivalent. But most people don’t see it that way: though they would pull the switch in the first dilemma, they would not heave the fat man in the second. When pressed for a reason, they can’t come up with anything coherent, though moral philosophers haven’t had an easy time coming up with a relevant difference, either.


As you stated already Omni, there is no way that even the largest, morbidly obese of men could stop a trolley, which in and of itself, probably weighs 3,000 lbs, and added the slope of the hill for velocity, plus the added weight of its passengers.

But, that isn't the point of the inquiry. Its a moral question geared towards leading the reader in to a conundrum.

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