I happen to believe in GOD, the Supernatural and that miracles happen.

I happen to believe that what we experience as Natural is but a subset of something larger, the Supernatural.

BUT ...

I also understand that we cannot detect or observe the Supernatural.

The Supernatural, if it exists, can only interact with the subset through those laws and forces that are part of the subset.

That means we will never have any evidence of the supernatural, even those places where there might be interaction would be explainable through plain old natural forces and effects.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

So just out of curiosity....why do you believe in the supernatural if you have never observed it or detected it?

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"If I had simply asked what the people wanted, they would have said faster horses."
Henry Ford

Since it is just a personal belief, I'm not at all sure any of my reasons would have any import.

In fact, that is really an important part of the discussion. As I said in the OP:



Anything I have experienced that has contributed to my beliefs could also be explained under entirely natural causes with NO reference to the Supernatural, gods, Gods or GOD.

Because it is fundamentally impossible to have proof or even firm evidence of the Supernatural, any attempt to assert that there is such proof or evidence is certain to fail.

This is where FAITH actually comes in. I have Faith that there is a GOD even while knowing that it is impossible to provide any support for that position. It is an irrational, unreasonable and unsupportable belief.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

Why, Jar! (Take note, RiverRat!) You actually admit that your belief is irrational, unreasonable, and unsupportable? You know, many of the people that share the forums with us through the years always claimed that you were not a believer, because you never trotted out the same vague dogmas that many others used. You would continually challenge them and pointing out that they never actually read the Bible. They, and I were initially shocked and offended that you said those things. For years I tried to get you to think as I did, and for years you attempted to show me how in actuality I was not thinking. You have helped me to understand my belief, my responsibility, and a rational way of understanding what it means to be a Christian.

My point is this: Had you started another topic on Why You Were An Atheist, I would have not felt as close to and in communion with you as I feel knowing that you share part of my unsupportable faith.

Why is this? Why do people embrace others who are familiar and who share beliefs even while many of us reject those who think unlike ourselves? (The reason this pertains to the topic is because IF there is a supernatural Living God, why would everyone not understand Her the same?)

Another question: Just what can we define the term supernatural to be?

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"If I had simply asked what the people wanted, they would have said faster horses."
Henry Ford

Because there can be no evidence of such a being.

Because there can be no understanding of such a being.

When we consider GOD, the God we actually think about, know, talk about, debate, worship is but a god of our own creation.

Since each individual is creating his or her own God to worship, the God created reflects the knowledge, culture, Mythos and idiosyncrasies of that individual, the individuals society and culture.

Where many make a mistake is in confusing the God they create and worship with GOD.

I know that I do not know GOD, will never during my lifetime know GOD. I understand that the God I worship is but the God I have created but I also have FAITH that someday I might actually get to know GOD. That will not be during my lifetime though.



We can't. We cannot define what the Supernatural is, only what it is not. It is not anything we can test and verify.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

See...I believe that I have met God, although I in no way know Her in the sense that I can understand Her. You have asked me in the past, How Do You Know? and I cannot give an answer. I cannot tell you that what I feel that I am in communion with is GOD, an Alien, or an imaginary friend in my own mind....although to be honest, I suspect that there is more to it than an overactive imagination fueled by dogmatic teachings.

There have been many times when I have been witness to extraordinary coincidences that I attributed to Gods presence, although I suppose that by definition, a coincidence is coincidence \ko-in-se-dens\ n 1 : exact agreement 2 : occurrence together apparently without reason; also : an event that so occurs and that I merely want proof of GOD for my own edification.

You had an experience.

If you are honest with yourself, you will recognize that you cannot really tell whether it was meeting God, or was just some kind of psychological experience.

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Jesus was a liberal hippie

So you have had an experience that could have been most anything.

There is nothing wrong with you believing that it was meeting God, as long as you also KNOW that it is far more likely that you are mistaken.

The problem comes when people accept and act on a message "because it is from God." No one should ever listen to and act on a message simply because it is from God.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

I think I need to expand somewhat on this.



It is possible, even likely, that we will experience things which we cannot explain. So is that proof that there is a God?

This I think is an important point.

Often people experience something inexplicable and often when the thing experienced is pleasurable, assign God as the cause.

That is a mistake unless they also assign those unexplained things that are not pleasurable to God.

When we experience things that cannot be explained, if we are honest, we really need to assign those things to an "Unexplained folder."

Why do we as people assign only the nice things to God?

IMHO that is because we do not want to make the God we have created responsible.

God is our favorite Imaginary Friend and Imaginary Friends simply don't do mean things to us.

But Good and Bad are nothing but a human construct, a point of view that has US as the center about which all else revolves. Very seldom are the things that happen really good or bad when viewed outside of our human and personal perspective.

When an Anopheles mosquito of the female persuasion bites you and you get malaria, you are likely to see that as a bad thing. But for the Anopheles mosquito you are dinner and the food supply needed to lay eggs during her one to two week lifespan.

We tend to assign good and bad solely based on how the outcome effects us personally, and to a lesser extent, others of our species in relation to proximity or societal connection.

But as outlined above, if the Supernatural exists, it is a superset of the rules, laws and forces that create the Natural, and only those laws and forces that are part of the subset we deem Natural can operate.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

One of the "extraordinary coincidences" that I often see is when God "leads" people to do what - by sheer "coincidence" - they wanted to do in the first place. ("The Lord is leading us to buy a bigger SUV, to help us do His work.")

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What we really need to do is fix the public.
-- Jon

I know what you mean, but I am talking about much deeper stuff. Shall I elaborate?

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"If I had simply asked what the people wanted, they would have said faster horses."
Henry Ford

They all say they're talking about "much deeper stuff". If it's on-topic, elaborate.

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What we really need to do is fix the public.
-- Jon

The next step I'd like to consider is the possibility of "miracles."

By definition a miracle is some inexplicable event that is the result of some supernatural intervention.

Is it possible that a miracle could happen and could actually be the result of some outside entity's intervention?

Well, sure.

It is possible for GOD to get a doctor to consider one more treatment option, to inspire an artist or inventor to try one new idea, to set in motion an unusual series of events that leads to an unexpected result.

BUT...

all of those things could also simply be the product of chance or normal human intelligence.

If something really is a miracle, it must still follow the rules and laws that govern the world we live in and the universe we see as natural.

If we are to be honest we need to understand that miracles prove nothing except the fact we cannot at this time explain exactly what happened. It is fine to believe that they were the result of outside intervention as long as we also acknowledge that we could and very likely are, wrong.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

Wrong about what? That GOD intervenes? Or that GOD can intervene? Or that GOD exists?

I have a deep yet unsupportable belief that GOD exists and is personally interested in me and you and baby blue. Are you telling me that I should acknowledge that I am likely in error over such a belief?

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"If I had simply asked what the people wanted, they would have said faster horses."
Henry Ford

Yes to all of them.



Yes.

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How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron - How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950